Published by LT on 27 Oct 2008 at 03:53 am
What is Biblical Submission?
What is biblical submission? It is a little bit of a trick question because our English bibles don’t reveal that there are a couple of different concepts relating to submission and obedience in scripture.
The word submit in English is used a few different ways as well. I can submit a proposal for consideration. I can submit to you the reader that something is untrue. I can submit my car keys to the new owners after I sold the car. Finally I can submit to the control of an authority.
The following English dictionaries define one aspect of submission this way.
- Collins English dictionary: "unwillingly allow something to be done to you."
- Dictionary.com: "to give over or yield to the power or authority of another."
- Webster : "yield to the control of another."
There are 6 greek words used in the New Testament to convey something like our modern concept of submission: hupotasso, hupakouo, hupeiko, peitho, peitharcheo and dogmatizo. Keep in mind that many greek words have different meanings based on their context. It is no different in English. I may submit a proposal or submit to a search before boarding a plane. Words take on different meanings based on how they are used.
The word most commonly translated submit or subjection is hupotasso. Hupotasso is a military term used to signify a surrender on a battle field. It’s non military usage is different.
It can mean any of the following depending on context:
- Arrange under
- Yield to admonition or advice
- Obey
Hupotasso is not used to convey a sense of involuntary obedience to human command or authority in the New Testament. The New Testament words that best represent that are hupakouo and peitharcheo. Neither of these words are used in reference to church leadership.
The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament states the following:
For a material understanding of the verb in the NT its considerable range of meaning should be noted, especially in the middle. Originally it is a hierarchical term which stresses the relation to superiors. But one should note that the subordination expressed may be either compulsory or voluntary. In the former case the main idea may be that of either power or conquest on the one side or lack of freedom on the other. In the NT the verb does not immediately carry with it the thought of obedience, ? I, 223, 31 ff.; VI, 9, 24 ff. ? 40, 29 ff. (Kittel).
Hupotasso, as it relates to members of the church interacting with each other is "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden." When Paul instructs the Ephesians to "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ" it is clear that he is speaking the sense of "arranging under" or "yield to admonition or advice" He isn’t telling people to obey each other. In 1Cor 16:16 when Paul calls on the Corinthians to submit to "everyone who cooperates in the work" it is clear there is no sense of hierarchy.
Hupotasso is found the following verses.
Luk 10:17 "Then the seventy-two returned with joy, saying, ‘Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name!’"
Heb 12:9 "Besides, we have experienced discipline from our earthly fathers and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life?"
Rom 8:7 "because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so."
Rom 10:3 "For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God’s righteousness."
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.
1Co 16:16 "also to submit to people like this, and to everyone who cooperates in the work and labors hard."
Eph 5:22 "Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord"
Col 3:8 "Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord"
Tit 2:9 Slaves are to be subject to their own masters in everything, to do what is wanted and not talk back,
Tit 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work.
1Pe 2:13 Be subject to every human institution for the Lord’s sake, whether to a king as supreme
1Pe 2:18 Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are perverse.
1Pe 3:22 who went into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers subject to him.
1Pe 5:5 In the same way, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Jas 4:7 "So submit to God. But resist the devil and he will flee from you."
Here are the other words translated submit or obey.
peitharcheo
Definition: “to obey authority” (Thomas)
Act 5:29 But Peter and the apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than people
Act 5:32 And we are witnesses of these events, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."
Act 27:21 Since many of them had no desire to eat, Paul stood up among them and said, "Men, you should have listened to me and not put out to sea from Crete, thus avoiding this damage and loss.
Tit 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work.
peitho
Definition: “to persuade, to have confidence” (Thomas)
It can be translated obey if spoken in the active or middle/passive. Most of us have no clue about active or passive tenses in Greek translation. What it means is that the word can be translated obey depending on how it used. In Heb 13:17 the word is used in such away that leads most translations to translated it as “obey.”
There are far too many verses to list here. The following is the main relevant passage:
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you.
hupakouo
Definition: to listen, attend to:—answer(1), became obedient(1), becoming obedient(1), heed(1), obedient(2), obey(12), obeyed(3). (Thomas)
Eph 6:5 Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart as to Christ,
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord for this is right.
dogmatizo
Defintion: to decree, to subject oneself to an ordinance:—submit … to decrees(1). (Thomas)
Col 2:20 "If you have died with Christ to the elemental spirits of the world, why do you submit to them as though you lived in the world?"
hupeiko
Defintion: to retire, withdraw, submit:—submit(1). (Thomas)
Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.
Heb 13:17 "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you."
What would submission in the church look like if it were pursued in a manner that was truly a "voluntary attitude of giving in and co-operating". It would look very different from what often goes on in authoritarian churches.
| Biblical Submission in the church | Authoritarian Submission in the church |
| Motivated by love and a desire to understand and co-operate | Motivated by fear and a desire to avoid harsh consequences |
| There are always elements of mutuality | Submission goes from the bottom to the top |
| Encourages freedom and expression | Stifles expression |
| Alternative opinions and disagreements are seen as opportunities to discern God’s insight and direction | Alternative opinions and disagreements with leadership are possible threats and may need to be dealt with authoritatively to preserve unity |
| Unity through mutual love, sacrifice and understanding | False unity through uniformity |
| Leadership encourages diversity and ensures that people feel safe to be themselves and use their gifts | Leadership sets direction and keeps careful watch over all activity to ensure non-conformist ideas and people don’t gain influence. |
| People feel free to disagree with leadership but respect the values and direction set for the group | People are afraid to voice disagreements and feel their only options are to stay silent or leave |
| Decision making is transparent and accountable | Decision making is confined to a narrow group of insiders that feel very little obligation to explain their actions. |
| Leadership is truly accountable because people are free to question in an accepting and safe atmosphere. | Leadership subverts true accountability by instilling fear, demonizing critics, and intimidating people. |
Biblical submission is a "voluntary attitude." What is the difference between a voluntary attitude and an involuntary attitude? Involuntary submission it is motivated by command, rules, fear, coercion, or manipulation. People give in because they have a tangible and an imminent fear of something terrible happening to them.
What should motivate us to submit to each other?
- Reverence for Christ (Eph 5:21)
- Leaders keep watch over us (Heb 13:17)
- So the leaders have joy (Heb 13:17)
- It would be profitable for us (Heb 13:17)
- Clothe ourselves in humility to each other (1Pe 5:5)
There is a noticeable absence of any spiritual disaster in this list.
There are a number of different ways in which Christian denominations approach leadership, hierarchy and submission. Some like the Baptists and Mennonites hold to flatter leadership structures where as the Methodists and Anglicans have stronger hierarchies. In all of them free thought, transparency and bi-directional accountability are considered essential. Despite the organizational differences many denominations end up operating in a very similar manner. In more flat organizational approaches hierarchies of influence develop and in more hierarchical organizational approaches several checks and balances are implemented to ensure the people at the top can be held accountable by the people lower down.
The proponents of Covering Theology often present themselves as God’s chosen leaders and label those who disagree with them as rebels. There is an incredible irony to this as these same leaders have cast off centuries of solid biblical interpretation to arrive at their conclusions. In order to accomplish this task they have redefined or skewed the traditional biblical concepts of sin, grace, submission, and faith. This often done with flagrant disregard the commonly held values and conventions of their movement or denomination.
Vol. 8: Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.) (41). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.
Carl E. Lewis on 21 Jan 2009 at 11:45 pm #
Your article has really given me great insite into the understanding of biblical submission and its usage. And many thanks go out to God on your behalf, and may he continue to shower you with His goodness.
I do have a question, Where does allowance play in the understanding of biblical submission? Many teach that the husband should be submissive to the wife as the wife is submissive to the husband. And they use Ephesians 5:22 as a backup scripture. They call it putting yourself under another’s mission. However, scripture does not give such a command.
The reason I bring this up is because, when I look at the book of Ephesians it gives a clear road, encouraging the body of Christ to submit to authority/responsibility. Even if you were to take verses 22-33 out of the mix and read from verse 21 and go on into chapter six verse one, concerning parents and children, it continues to indicate the one with the submitting themeselves to the one of greater authority/responsibility. You could do the same if you just skip down to the verses dealing with servants submitting to their masters.
Now on the behalf of the one with the greater authority/responsibility their relationship to the lesser is one more of allowance than authority. I could be wrong but I can’t recall God submitting to us, but He does allow us to do what it is He has called us to do. In the same way the husband who has been givien the greater auathority/responsibility must allow the wife, through love, to do those things which come under her responsibility.
Please, share your thoughts on the matter with me. Looking forward to it.
LT on 22 Jan 2009 at 2:41 am #
Hi Carl
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “allowance.”
My take on Eph 5 is that 5:21 is the main principle and the rest of the chapter fleshes out this principle. If submission is “one to another” logically it can’t be about authority because we can’t be in authority over each other at the same time.
We need to take in to consideration Jesus’ words in Luke 22:25, Mat 20:25-26, Mar 10:42-23. Leaders serve “as the younger” or “like the one who serves [at a table].” Jesus warned us against exercising authority over one another in Mat 20.
In our culture we associate submission with hierarchical authority and I’m afraid that we come to the scriptures with that lens and it colours our perception.
I believe the purpose of biblical submission is for every believer to gain strength, encouragement and correction by opening up to the ministry of others. The New Testament authors emphasizes submission in certain situations where it would be very beneficial for one group of people to submit. Wives had a lot to gain by submitting to husbands. I think the reverse is true as well.
If hupotasso is a voluntary attitude of giving and cooperating or sharing a burden I can’t see how husbands wouldn’t benefit by submitting to their wives. Women are gifted by God and God can speak through anyone.
Thanks for the comment, feel free to respond to mine.
Carl E. Lewis on 22 Jan 2009 at 3:57 pm #
I agree that submission is to strengthen the whole body. However, authority in the New Testament is given for the same reason, not like the world uses authority but the authority given to the leader, the more mature individual, the parent, christian boss etc., is more one of responsibility. When we look at Ephesians 5 and the examples given to show relational submission it is always the less responsible to the more responsible. The wife to the husband, the parent to the child, the servant to the master. However, when you look at the reverse of each situation it is one more of provider to the one who needs because of the love that should be shown in that order as Jesus showed love to the church.
Now, in this case, responsibility carries authority with it, just as biblical authority carries responsibilty. So the more responsible individual in a relationship must allow the one submitted to them to carry out the things they are submitting to. Not so much as the more responsible submitting to the less responsible.
A husband loving his wife as Christ loves the church carries a greater responsibility than a wife submitting to a husband. Why, becuse the husband has the last say about things that go on in the home, and if I’m right he’s the one who will be held accountable for the workings of the family at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
In the Garden of Eden it was not so because both parties did what was asked of them by God, but after sin enterd our existence and the punishment was handed down it became necessary.
So the husband must love his wife enough to allow her to do the things she is responible for, the parent must allow the child to grow while at the same time govern their gowing, the master or boss must allow the employee to do what is asked of them, but at no time is submission to the lesser imposed upon the greater.
If I’m missing something keep talking to me. I don’t care what the bible teaches, I just want to know what it is.
Leighton Tebay on 23 Jan 2009 at 1:40 pm #
“However, authority in the New Testament is given for the same reason, not like the world uses authority but the authority given to the leader, the more mature individual, the parent, christian boss etc., is more one of responsibility.”
Where in scripture does it explicitly say that authority is given to the leader?
What is different about how the world uses authority and the church uses authority?
Carl E. Lewis on 02 Feb 2009 at 7:34 pm #
If you would read in particular Romans 13, I Peter 2:13-17. There would be no good leadership if there were no consequenses to wrong doing. It would be a very good thing if everybody were as submissive as God asked us to be. However, there would be no argument over the death penalty if we were. The only one who can decide whether consequences are carried out is the leader. But he could not do so if he did not have the authority to do it.
LT on 02 Feb 2009 at 8:07 pm #
I have a page dedicated to each of those verses. They both speak of the imperial government of Rome, not the church. While Paul and Peter instructed people to obey the government we have to be careful to import these ideas in to the church. On two different occasions Jesus instructed his disciples to lead in a manner contrary to that of the government, and to literally not exercise authority over one another.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
Mat 20:26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
Mat 20:27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,
Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Luk 22:21 But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table.
Luk 22:22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!”
Luk 22:23 And they began to question one another, which of them it could be who was going to do this.
Luk 22:24 A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves.
Luk 22:27 For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.
Carl E. Lewis on 05 Feb 2009 at 4:34 pm #
Are you saying that there is no discipline within the church, for those who choose to be unsubmissive to those who have been given the right to rule?
LT on 05 Feb 2009 at 6:49 pm #
No, I’m just trying to take Jesus’ words as seriously as I can without glossing over them.
Carl E. Lewis on 09 Feb 2009 at 4:54 pm #
Thank you for your assistance in this matter. May God continue to bless your endeavors.
Carl E. Lewis on 09 Feb 2009 at 5:44 pm #
Please forgive me for not reading your article clearly. You actually answered my question about allowance in your comparison sesction, Biblical Submission in the church vs. Authoritarian submission in the church. My bad as the kids would say. Pray that I listen/read closer, not just to you but everyone.
Again thanks!
Karen on 08 Nov 2009 at 3:09 pm #
It is really sad, So many husbands take this Submission thing the wrong way, These men who hammer there wifes to submit, Are not even living as they should. I believe it the order of the headship. But not these men who are ugly to there wives. And always calling them rebellion. Wicked men repent. God does have a order, It is husbands love your wives. Be kind. It is very easy to submit to a man in this manner.
Joe Lee on 04 Feb 2010 at 8:21 pm #
Hi,
I was wondering- could you please outline, in a very simple, clear manner- what is the nature of Biblical submission then? Practically, what should it look like? And I’m referring the nature of the relationship between a church member and a church leader. Surely, it’s not the same as all other relationships in the church. What does it mean then for a church member to submit? Submit to what? To only when a church leader speaks directly from the Bible? In what other ways does a church member need to submit to church leaders?
Thanks.
LT on 04 Feb 2010 at 9:16 pm #
Hi Jason
I’m not sure I can give you what you want. The bible doesn’t provide us with a clear simple straightforward model for leadership. The best we can do is look a the examples and the concepts given to us by scripture.
The way I work these principles out in my ministry does look different than in many churches as I’m a leader in a network of house churches. In my context leadership is very relational and less about administering programs and organizing events.
I think the way most evangelical churches work this out is legitimate so far as it is an attempt of fallen people to be faithful to Christ. My table comparing biblical and authoritarian submission gets as specific as I’d be willing to be.
I think people in the church should give careful heed to the advice and wisdom of the leaders. They should gain the benefit of submission to leaders. Leaders should understand that they never replace Christ, people don’t follow Christ through them, leaders help people follow Christ. Which means that people could be following Christ and not following their leader.
A leader is someone trusted to guide, so it would be normal for more people to give weight to the leaders words. The leader must always remember that the Holy Spirit can work through anyone, so they must always be open to hearing what God is saying through people.
Joe Lee on 09 Feb 2010 at 7:51 pm #
Hi,
Thank you for your response. May I ask something regarding your chart? I notice that in your chart, there seems to be an emphasis placed on mutuality and encouragement of free expression. Is there Scripture which backs this emphasis? Or is more something inferred from the idea of voluntary giving and cooperating that you talk about?
Thank you.
LT on 12 Feb 2010 at 8:51 pm #
I’d pull that from all the one anothers in scripture and Paul’s metaphor of the body found in 1cor 12.
LT on 14 Feb 2010 at 12:51 am #
I’d also consider Eph 5:21 and the definition of one greek word (hupotasso) translated submit.
Vincent on 12 Nov 2010 at 4:46 am #
Compromise on the words submission. It is world view that submission is inferior but in God context, it is about holy character. So whether authority or mature, it doesn’t matter if we get rid of world view and put on the God view, because it is about the role of each inidividual to submit to God.
Being said that I would like to express my concern that each inidividual is unique, so many time, or everytime, the view and decision can be very much differ, so it still required some order to ensure it works, just like we submit to God, Children, wife, husband, father whatever you status is, each need to submit to what the Bible said, and notice that in the end it is God at the top end.
Victorious on 14 Dec 2010 at 1:39 am #
Ephesians 5 becomes clear as to Paul’s intent when we read it as presented; “from the bottom up” rather than the popular “top down” method. I see this as Paul’s appeal to the “stronger” to change their perspective of the “weaker, more vulnerable” and his attempt to “level the playing field” so to speak.
Let’s first look at the message (from the bottom up) to slaves and masters. We know slavery was rampant but from the beginning, this was never God’s plan nor did He establish a system of domination of one over the other among His people. We see, throughout scripture God’s efforts to protect the well-being of slaves and educate slaveholders how to treat them fairly. With the many scriptures in the OT that support fair, just treatment of slaves, we look at Paul’s admonishments to both slaves (weak and vulnerable) and masters (strongers and more powerful)
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ…Eph 6:5
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening…Eph 6:9
Paul is not supporting nor endorsing the continuation of the practice; on the contrary, he is appealing to their sense of fair treatment one to another to ensure a peaceable relationship in an existing situation and time that permitted privileges to one to the exclusion of the other.
We know he continued in this effort to eradicate the existing system and implement one that is patterned after mutual respect when he encouraged Philemon to change his attitude toward his slave to one of a brother in Christ. He further tells slaves that if they became a believer while being a slave, to remain in that position (because of the late hour) but if they could become free, to rather do that.
We see his view of slavery in other places which you can research yourself that the system that allowed for one having power over another was never God’s plan and you will see progressive efforts throughout the Word and throughout history to eliminate and/or rescue those who have been oppressed by such a system.
continued
Victorious on 14 Dec 2010 at 1:41 am #
Ephesians 5 (cont.)
Next we can briefly look at Paul’s admonishment to children and parents. Again, we know from scripture (and history) the harsh manner parents have treated their children; i.e. “Passing through the fire” and offering them to false idols, selling them as slaves. We see the relationship between Saul & Jonathan, Absalom’s rebellion against his father David, and the stoning of a rebellious son whose parents brought him to the elders of the city to complain that he was a drunkard and a glutton. Compare the treatment of the father to his son in the parable of the prodigal son.
So Paul entreats children (weaker and more vulnerable) to be obedient to their parents (stronger and powerful) so it will be well with them in their care and then admonishes the father not to be harsh nor to exasperate the children but to instruct them in the way of the Lord.
Children,obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Eph 6:4
Again, Paul does not endorse nor encourage an authoritarian, harsh relationship between parents and their children, but appeals to peaceable respect between them.
continued
Victorious on 14 Dec 2010 at 1:42 am #
Ephesians 5 (cont.)
And finally, we turn to Paul’s efforts to raise the status of wives and curtail the practices of harsh treatment toward them in an era that previously permitted polygamy, concubinage,
marriage by purchase or by capture in war, slave-marriage, and putting away wives for any cause. He first speaks to the wife as the weaker, more vulnerable vessel:
…..and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. Wives, to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself the Savior of the body. Eph 5:23
Paul is not establishing nor maintaining a system or relationship that was historically abused by husbands. He is appealing to the wife to see the husband in terms of Christ’s saving the church. He’s encouraging a new perspective and attitude toward the one who will love her and sacrifice for her as Christ did.
But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives to their husbands in everything Eph 5:24
Paul is comparing the church being in the care and nourishment of Christ to the wife’s being the recipient of the care and nourishment of her husband. We know this by the words of admonishment to husbands to care for (nourish) and cherish her as Christ does to the church.
And then to the stronger, more powerful husband:
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her…
Eph 5:25
He makes no mention of authority, control, or power in this relationship. Only “agape” love which gives itself up for another. This is radically different than the pattern of husbands to their wives which de-valued her, divorced her for any reason, and took multiple wives in total disregard for the original purpose of marriage.
In keeping with Paul’s efforts to change the erroneous concept of the husband’s authority, we find him specifically saying that the wife has equal authority in the home and the same as the husband in the sexual relationship. Surely we cannot interpret his words as commands that encourage anything other than mutual, reciprocal, loving, respectful treatment.
Paul’s closing remarks to these three groups of people clearly compare their relationships to that of Christ to the church. The “mystery” of Christ’s relationship to the church is Christ’s giving Himself, humbling Himself, emptying Himself, and His servanthood as exemplary of His willingly subjecting Himself on behalf of the Church. In other words, He subjects Himself not to her, but for her sake.
Rather than the current, popular reading of this passage from the “top-down,” Paul intended it to be read and understood from the “bottom-up” position as a protective measure for those most vulnerable which was radically different from the “assumed” authority of the times.
Hope this helps.
ginny on 20 Feb 2011 at 12:38 am #
I wanted to ask about submission to authority (bosses, government). These people are usually secular but I understand the bible says submit to the authority on earth, as long as they are not preventing us from worshiping God. I understand that judgement comes from God, and it is not our place to take matters in our own hands. So would it be correct in saying that for situations like the Egypt revolt, christians should NOT be participating in such things? Likewise if a boss is hurting someone in the office, treating them unfairly, is it our place to try and do something about it? Thanks
Joaquim on 12 Mar 2011 at 8:39 pm #
The word of God can be the only measuring rod in which we can interpret the word. Ephesians tells the wives to submit to their husbands in everything. And everything means everything. The only time that a wife is not to be in submission is when a husband tells a wife to do something that is against the word of God. Also the passage in Ephesians says for the wife to submit to the husband exactly the same as she would submit to Christ. This is not a suggestion or a feel like it thing. This is a command. Also in 1 Peter chapter 3 the bible even goes on to say in verses 1-5 that the wife us to submit to her husband even if he is not a believer or follower of Christ. There is no exception. It goes on to further say that women should be submissive in their actions without even having to say a word. With their Godly attitude and pure heart it will win the unbelievingly or harsh husband to the Lord. And lastly it says that this is how the holy women in the bible acted to their husbands with respect and humility even if the husband was bad or no good. The end of it says that Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him Lord and that if you are obedient like her then you are her daughters. There is no interpretation here. That is what the bible says and teaches. I’ve also heard people say that the bible teaches that men should also submit to their wives. This is not true and can be found nowhere in the bible. Ephesians teaches believers to be submissive to one another. This is not talking about a marriage relationship. There are 5 times in the bible that is says for wives to submit to their husbands. There are no times does it say husbands submit to your wives. Of course we should know what the bible says about how a husband should treat his wife. I will not talk about that on here because we are talking solely about the role of submission. We are not even talking about how a man shouldn’t Lord his position over his wife. I know that and I pray that we all do. I’m trying to convey what the bible teaches for women. I want all to read these scriptures so that there is no error or reason to justify not doing right in the sight of God. Please read 1 Timothy ch2. 1 Corinthians ch .11 ch. 1-11. 1 Peter ch 3 vs 1-6. And the whole book of Ephesians chapters 4&5.
LT on 12 Mar 2011 at 9:44 pm #
Joaquim
I don’t find your argument convincing. The Holy Spirit works according to the will of the Spirit. Out of reverence for Christ I open myself up to receive the direction God has for me through anyone, including my wife. We follow Christ together. While none of the biblical authors directly instruct husbands to submit to their wives, their understanding of how the Holy Spirit works through the whole body of Christ would have meant they would have been open to the work of the Holy Spirit in women.
I believe the admonition to “submit one to another our of reverence for Christ” has to include husbands being open to receiving the Holy Spirit’s direction from through their wives and acknowledging the giftedness of their wives.
Joaquim on 13 Mar 2011 at 3:31 am #
Lt
I didn’t give my thoughts or opinions. You however gave your opinions and thoughts. Everything that I said was a quote from the bible and it wasn’t my argument. I see you didn’t argue with the scriptures. I too am married to a godly woman who is filled with the holy spirit. Many times she hears from God in her spirit and tells me which way we ought to go and I listen to her. I don’t control or dominate her and I love her and treat her as my equal.
You are missing the point. The point is that God through the writings of the apostles tells the wife to be submissive to the husband in everything. Those are not my words my friend. It also tells the wife to submit to an ungodly husband so that he will be won over by her attitude and heart. Not my words but it’s in the bible.
What you are also failing to mention is that submission is more than just an act of the will but it is an attitude of the heart. You should read John Bevere’s book Undercover to get more insight. Anyways I will give you an example so you understand what I mean. If I tell my wife to cheat on our taxes and demand that she does this because I’m the head of the house. This is an extreme example and something that I would never do but so that you get the point. My wife. My wife would say something like: Joaquim I’m bot going to do that because it’s against God and I can’t do that. We need to be honest in our dealings with people. I pray that you understand my reason for not doing it. In the example my wife is still submitted to me even though she didn’t obey what I said. She wouldn’t say you jerk how could you ask me to do something so stupid. I thought you were a man of God you must be an idiot for asking me to do such a thing. That would be an act of an unsubmissive heart toward her head.
As you can see submission doesnt mean obedience at any cost. It does always have to do with the right attitude, heart, respect, and honor to a superior, leader, or official.
LT on 13 Mar 2011 at 7:09 am #
Pretty much every point I made in my last comment is based in scripture (e.g. 1Cor 12, Eph 5). I don’t feel the need to quote it.
I think you lost me when you say I should read Under Cover. I have written quite extensively about the book and have read it a number of times and listened to many hours of sermons based on his book. I don’t believe in Bevere’s definition of submission because I don’t believe it is based on scripture. I have the definition of hupotasso listed on the original post on this page.
Nevertheless the point of this website isn’t really to debate gender roles, there are other websites that do a better job of that. While I don’t find any biblical basis for the concept of Coverings there is a legitimate theological debate over what Paul and Peter thought about gender and submission.
With all due respect I’m not interested in playing games with people that I say “should” read something or that my positions are not based on scripture.
If you wish to offer legitimate criticism of something I’ve actually written feel free. Otherwise I’m not really interested.
Joaquim on 16 Mar 2011 at 6:39 am #
[Comment deleted]
Wayne Brown on 14 May 2011 at 3:57 am #
Hi,
I am struggling with submitting to a home group leader. There is no relationship and I have been requested by our pastor to support him. Problem is after more than 6 months I find myself being resentful in my heart towards him. I simply do not agree with the manner in which the home group is conducted and this was discussed with him and his wife in a meeting with myself and my wife (after we had spoken with our pastor, so we had his permission and he was aware of our concerns)
Do we continue to attend home group whilst we do not really want to be there ?(it is not only about us, there are others who benefit from our input)
Perhaps the Lord is teaching us about submission. We do not want to bring judgement on ourselves, as happened to Miriam.
Regards
Wayne
LT on 19 May 2011 at 1:32 pm #
Hi Wayne
Honestly I don’t really know enough about your situation to be confident in offering helpful advice.
Crusader on 16 Jun 2011 at 1:17 am #
Hi,
I’ve been led by God to do some programs outside the church…like singing events, seminars for singles etc. I also have 2 openings to minister in songs to old peoples home.
My pastor thinks these events should be for the church. He said I bit more than I can chew at the first singing event I organized because I did almost everything by myself….but God took the glory as we had about 220-250 people at the praise night. I am just passionate for God. I may not be the best person…but I love God and I want to serve Him in a different way with all I’ve got. Now, I’m being very careful about organizing the next event. Because I’m afraid of what they’ll say. I’m being careful about involving members of the church because I do not want anything that will cause offence. I have met with my pastor a number of times to explain that the event is non-church. During one of our discussions, they said to me that the
I told my pastor I do not want to be a pastor or have a flair to be one but I just want to set up an organization to organize events for the Lord with my money and time. My activities and commitments in church are however not reduced. But my pastor does not agree with me. Maybe because I’m a deaconess in the church. I’ve been praying about church leadership and that I do not want to disrespect authority…my search led to this website.
I do not want to meet with him to discuss the issue anymore as I do not want to be seen as rebellious….plus I’ve met with him at least 3 times.
Is there something I’m missing? What do you counsel?
Crusader
cindy on 10 Aug 2011 at 6:51 pm #
Crusader, the body of Christ is the church, not your pastor in a building merely. He has no say in what you do outside of the church building as in your activities. What activities or resources you give to the local church building are between you and God. If your pastor is trying to run your life outside of the church building as to what you do with your time that is not causing harm to the body of Christ (the whole world of believers) than maybe you should find a new church. It makes me question what motives could be there. We are under no command to be in any particular church building but are free to come and go. Even Paul let God decide where he should go and to what church when or what city or what should be done with his time. He would have rebuked a leader if he heard he was trying to have that kind of control in your life. It is not biblical or normal.
Mrs S kuck on 25 Aug 2011 at 5:33 pm #
Hi LT, I would just like to thank God for bringing you to a wider audience so they may be guided by the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God, bring the truth of God’s word and bring back everything to their rememberance all that the Holy Spirit has taught. My husband and me got married in June this year and are as they put it newly weds. We were attending a church and it was okay at first, i started noticing little things that grew bigger. Some people were chosen over others to pray in bible classes, in prayer meetings, and i was often prevented from speaking in bible studies. I have problems concerning some traumatic experiences i encountered and was seeking healing and deliverence to overcome this. At cell groups i encountered the same patterns of behaviour and it really upset me as I experienced this in my life. I felt like I was being abused and felt like I was being disciplined for something they did not tell me exaclty what I had done to deserve this. When I wanted to use my gifts I was told by my Pastor I was unfit for service and he would not allow me to use my gifting. He was implying i was trouble because i disagreed in the way he was caring for the most vulnerable and because he had assigned a friend to run the cell group without teaching him the correct way to run cell groups which allows everyone to speak and views be addressed. In our marriage counselling he brought up my past and this had nothing to do with our marriage life together. We were interrupted constantly during our counselling or it was ended for him to go elsewhere. I have addressed this issue with all parties and so I started looking into submission as im starting a project and hoped to bring light to the subjects concerning leadership, government,God, elders and husband in the church. I asked God what is going on in the churches and I believe God started to show me truth about submission which is why i came across your website.
I kept telling the Pastor that there is manipulation going on in the church, and treated me as if I was crazy, troubled. Even though there is much to overcome because of my life, God is at work and the enemy has been hiding unnoticed to continue to manipulate the word of God to exercise control and make men gods instead of God having the ultimate power and authority. The teaching of God is clearly evident in what you have conveyed through the Holy Spirit and supported through the Word of God. I know that the enemy wants me out of that church so his deeds dont become manifest into those who cannot see. The Holy Spirit has been leading me and showing me and the table that you have outlined is exactly what has been happening to me. It is more authoritarian submission in the church than biblical submission in the church. May God Bless You and keep speaking the truth love from your sister xxx
Rick J on 04 Dec 2011 at 4:19 am #
I think with respect to submission it is critical to remember that there are different spheres of authority, and we need to think about what, exactly, is included within the realm of church leaders.
That is, whether or not I am allowed to serve in a certain area of the church is something I should submit to with being contentious – that is under the church leadership’s discretion, and they are given authority to rule over such things.
However, I am the priest of my relationship with God in certain areas. If a pastor says ‘marry this person’ or ‘take this job’ I certainly am not being rebellious if I say ‘no’ – because none of these things are under the sphere of pastoral authority. As a priest individual believers are accountable for these kinds of decisions, and in such matters it is actually the church authority that would need to submit to the individual’s authority as priest – that is, a leader could certainly share or ‘submit’ their thoughts in these areas to the believer, and yet have to acknowledge the individual believers ultimate authority… in the same way a congregation member may suggest an opinion on who would make a good youth leader but would have to leave this in the hands of the leadership.
What I haven’t seen commonly taught is that all the parties in the body need to acknowledge authority and honor the authority given to each one… it doesn’t just go one way.
peace to all